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The British Continental
Immediate progress or false start? Jon Dutton on British Cycling's task force update
In this episode, we sit down with British Cycling CEO Jon Dutton OBE for an exclusive interview, following the organisation’s much-anticipated update on implementation of the 43 recommendations put forward by the elite road racing task force.
The task force was charged with developing recommendations for British Cycling to implement in 2024 and beyond, aimed at breathing new life into the ailing, fragile elite road racing scene.
Jon Dutton promised that the task force would not be "a talking shop" and said “there are a number of areas where we can and will make immediate progress” [Ed: emphasis added].
In January 2024, the task force's report presented 43 key actions for British Cycling to implement, condensed into 16 published recommendations, with British Cycling responding that a "long-term action plan" was already in development in response.
Our latest conversation with Jon Dutton dives into what progress has been made so far. Dutton emphasises the organisation's efforts to implement one of the standout recommendations - saving the Tours of Britain - but what about the other 42 actions, the ones directly aimed at revitalising the elite level? Fans were promised fast results, but has British Cycling delivered?
In this candid discussion, recorded just before the publication of the official progress update on 13 September, Jon sheds light on British Cycling's efforts so far and whether he is satisfied with progress.
For domestic road racing enthusiasts, this episode offers a deep dive into the state of the sport, what’s been done so far, and what the future holds. Listen in to hear whether British Cycling is meeting expectations, and check out our upcoming progress scorecard on the website to see our own assessment of their efforts.
The British Continental. Proudly presented by Le Col, supported by Pro-Noctis
Welcome to the British Continental Podcast, the show shining a light on stories about British bike racing teams and riders at the domestic level. Hello, I'm Denny Gray and welcome to another edition, a special edition of the British Continental Podcast. When British Cycling appointed an elite road racing task force to support its work to innovate and energise the domestic scene back in August 2023, it raised the hopes of many domestic road racing fans, myself included, that at long last, the national governing body was going to give the ailing, fragile elite road racing scene the TLC is so desperately required. The task force was asked to develop a series of recommendations for British Cycling to implement in 2024 and beyond. John Dutton, obe British Cycling CEO, promised that the task force would not be a talking shop and said, and I quote there are a number of areas where we can and will make immediate progress, not a talking shop. Immediate progress, recommendations that would be implemented by British Cycling in 2024 and beyond. Exciting times for a domestic road racing fan.
Speaker 1:The task force's recommendations arrived in January this year. The full report set out 43 actions for British Cycling to implement, condensed into 16 recommendations. In the published version, 42 of these recommendations were clearly focused on the elite level of racing, with an additional recommendation to step in and save the tours of Britain. Reading these actions, it was clear that some would take time to implement, but there were some quick wins, too plenty for British Cycling to get its teeth into. What's more, british Cycling stated, in response to the recommendations, that work was already underway to develop a long-term action plan to deliver all these recommendations. Anticipation was building.
Speaker 1:Things went quiet for a while until John Dutton agreed to an interview with us ahead of the Women's Tour of Britain. In that interview, john Dutton spoke about the organisation's effort to implement one of the 43 recommendations, the one about the Tours of Britain. But when I asked him about progress on the other 42, the ones directly concerning the elite tier that he'd said he'd wanted immediate progress on, he was not forthcoming, instead promising a summer update, which brings us to now. British Cycling published its update on the 13th of September, not quite a summer update, but, to be fair, the timing was delayed so that it could coincide with a follow-up interview with us that John Dutton had kindly agreed to. So here it is, our second interview with John. This was recorded just ahead of the Progress Updates publication.
Speaker 1:While I was still digesting the update. I've thought of many other questions I wish I'd asked him since, but hopefully it gives a good interrogation of where British Cycling has got to and whether John is satisfied with this progress. Please give it a listen and form your own thoughts about whether you think British Cycling's response to the task force recommendation has been immediate and comprehensive enough so far, and look out on our website for our own progress scorecard, which will be published soon, setting out our considered thoughts on British Cycling's progress to date, which will be published soon, setting out our considered thoughts on British cycling's progress to date. Finally, as ever, a huge thanks to Le Col, our title sponsor, who are instrumental in enabling us to exist as we do, and thanks too to our supporting partner, pronoctis, who are also critical to what we do.
Speaker 1:Well, welcome, john. Welcome back, in fact, to the British Continental podcast. It wasn't that long ago that we had you on the podcast, just on the eve of the Tour of Britain, women, I guess. Since then, john, it's been a very busy summer for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, first things first. My pleasure. Thanks for asking me back, danny. Yeah, it's been a busy but really positive, successful and productive summer. Obviously, Olympics, paralympics, tour of Britain, men, school games the drumbeat of everything else that goes on across the whole of the cycling ecosystem but feeling maybe a bit jaded and looking forward to re-energising, but really proud, really proud of everything the organisation has done and in particular, our riders in Paris who did remarkable things.
Speaker 1:When does a chief executive get a holiday? When you're at British Cycling.
Speaker 2:I'm not quite sure yet, danny. I've not managed to work that out, but I was out in Paris twice, thoroughly enjoyed being there. What an absolute privilege to watch some of those performances. I spent my last week on the Tour of Britain traversing the UK from Kelsall to Felixdorf, so, despite any tiredness, I appreciate I'm in a really privileged position and, yeah, just looking forward to supporting the team throughout the rest of the year.
Speaker 1:Great Well obviously we talked about both tours of Britain the last time we spoke, and another thing we talked about was the Elite Road Task Force and we're talking on the day that the progress update which you promised when we spoke last time would be published. It is being published now, so it's kind of timely that we've got you back on, john uh, to talk about that and to talk about how the tours of britain have gone. I guess, first of all, john, there are I mean, we just talked about the olympics, you just talked about the paralympics tours of britain and I guess you know if cycling was a christmas tree, they would be the kind of stars, the jewels on the top of the tree, and but I know that you oversee a whole pyramid of activity. You know right from the roots upwards to use the Christmas tree analogy probably pretty poorly.
Speaker 1:And then you know, somewhere in there is this elite level, this elite scene which back in August last year, not long after you became chief executive, you commissioned this task force to look at. Just thinking about where we are now. I mean, obviously you commissioned that because I think last time we spoke people said they wanted a conversation. There were challenges which were obvious, which we've discussed before. Where do you see the scene now? I mean a year on, well over a year on, since you first announced the task force. Do you think the elite level is in a better place than it was before, or is it still facing some of the or many of the challenges that you identified previously?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it certainly should be facing some of the same challenges and maybe in some areas the environment has got more challenging. I really like the Christmas tree analogy and the star that sits on the top, and during the Olympics and Paralympics we talked a lot about the rider's journey, and the rider's journey starts somewhere and it starts with learning to ride a bike. It starts with having that joy, freedom, coming into a club structure, getting the coaching support, then the talent pathway into racing opportunities and ultimately into the GB squad. So the star at the top of the Christmas tree cannot exist without everything else, and that's one of the many reasons why we're taking this very seriously. It's quite interesting, Denny.
Speaker 2:We've been looking at some numbers. We commission a market tracker analysis and we do that every quarter, and the last quarter the market tracker showed that 27 million people a third of the UK population, had got on a bike in the last 12 months. The number of people that compete across the whole piece, not just road, is 27,000. And that just puts into perspective the size of the different markets. Now that doesn't mean to say that the 27 million are more important than the 27,000. Far from it.
Speaker 2:But this is trying to find our way back to the Christmas tree of. We want the success and the visibility that the elite and the GBs things that happen bring, but it's so important that the ecosystem is supported underneath that and there are enormous challenges, in particular in road racing, and we get it. There are some things that we can contribute to and hopefully help fix. There are other things that are outside of our control and we can explore that in more detail, from funding et cetera. But it's difficult circumstances. We have to stay positive. We have to have a level of determination to do something about the things that are in our control and fix. And the Tour of Britain again, we can explore. That has been an important part of the journey and, you know, really seminal for me last week to be in some of the locations and to actually think through the art of the possible, going forward in delivering that race, creating visibility and how it can underpin and support some of the rest of the ecosystem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, obviously you have so many responsibilities, john, as Chief Executive at British Cycling cycling. Where does the elite level sit in your list of priorities, given the fact that, as you said, there are huge challenges it faces? I know it's been. Those challenges aren't necessarily unique just to the elite scene, but there is a sense of urgency, I think. I think we probably agree around kind of resuscitating revitalizing, I think, was the term used when the task force was announced the elite scene, given that many races are struggling, the costs are huge. It probably would only take the Lincoln Grand Prix and the Cycle Classic to disappear and you'd be thinking what's realistically left of the scene? Amongst your many priorities, where does trying to support the elite scene sit? Does trying to support the elite scene sit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a high priority, denny, and that's why, as we last spoke, I wanted to do something about it. This was by choice. This wasn't something that's been enforced on us. It's really important that we don't look at it this singly. It is part of everything else. So when I use the word ecosystem maybe too much, but I think it's a great word on event organisers, on volunteers, on accredited marshals on the route, on the police, on all of those things so I think the ecosystem should never lose sight of. I've also used the analogy of a piece of dough, a piece of pizza dough, and when you're stretching the pizza dough, if you're not careful, it will just stretch too far and it will break.
Speaker 2:And that's part of our challenge is we have seven disciplines. We have lots of people who want us to do more. We are in receipt of public funding from Sport England and UK Sport and have obligations around that. We want to grow the sport. We have a huge participation piece and the majority of people that participate don't want to put a number on and compete. We have those 27,000 people who are absolutely at the core and a volunteer network and more.
Speaker 2:So it's about never losing sight of the importance of this piece of work, of the importance of providing elite opportunities. It's also about ensuring it is part of the bigger picture and we need the pipeline. If we haven't got the pipeline, if we haven't got juniors 23s, everything else that sits below it, if we haven't got enough event organisers, if we haven't got good relationships with local authorities and so on and so forth, then we're not going to be able to succeed. And it's tough, denny, let's not get away from. It's tough and it's been played out in front of our eyes the loss of races, some of the other things that are happening, obviously, the 20-mile-an-hour speed zone and some of the things that are happening in Wales. Again, we can explore all those areas. So that's the environment, and we can either just all feel sorry for ourselves and all blame each other, or we can get on and do something about it, and we're definitely in the latter.
Speaker 1:Let's uh, let's do everything that we can okay, great, so talking about let's getting on with with action, then we'll. We'll talk about the progress update in a second. One thing I wanted to check, john, was that we didn't talk about this last time. But obviously behind the published 16 recommendations that the task force made was a full 40 recommendations that they they made. Obviously that the published report was, I guess, a summary of those and tried to condense them down just to make them a bit more digestible. Does British Cycling accept the full 40 recommendations and the vision that the task force was trying to paint in its in its report to you?
Speaker 2:yeah, we've accepted the recommendations and you're absolutely right that, um that there is lots of detail, um, in some of them. So we've tried to uh produce something that is public facing, uh, and summarize the recommendations and obviously task force were part of that um, when we had those together. We have a team, we have a team leader, we have a project plan, and that references the long list rather than the summary. There are some things in there. I'm not entirely sure that we are within our gift and our control and whether we can actually influence. There are some things absolutely at the core in our wheelhouse that we can.
Speaker 2:So the team have spent the last few months it's about eight months, I think since we published the report. We have been distracted, and distracted in a positive way, because one of the first recommendations was save the tours of Britain and we got on and did something about that and, to put that into context, we have British cycling events that will be responsible for the delivery of not just those but other events. That organisation now has two full-time people, so two full-time people to deliver two world tour races means that we need to rely on the rest of the organisation and more people. So there are no excuses, denny. What I would say is delivering those two races has been a positive distraction for the organisation and I think it's created some new opportunities.
Speaker 2:So really simple things like infrastructure. You know the more that Vichy Cycling Event takes on the branding project that we're on with, obviously bringing in our lead partner. They are all beneficial not just to the Tour of Britain, menabit and women, but to everyone else. So yeah, eight months on, I really want to kick on now and use the rest of the year and make sure that we really challenge ourselves, that we're doing everything we can. Inevitably, when we come to the long list, there'll be some of those things that we just are not able to achieve.
Speaker 1:Yeah, going back to my previous question, John, the key thing there in your answer was that you do accept the full 40 recommendations. You accept that they all need action. They're all worthy recommendations. What you're saying is perhaps not the full 40 are things that British Cycling can necessarily deal with in full.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a really good summary, Danny. And just on the acceptance, let's not forget that we commissioned an independent group led by Ed Clancy, representative of road racing, so of course we accept the recommendations. No is then into, so that's like the discovery phase. No is into the implementation, the execution phase. So that's for the team, the baton has been passed over and, look, everyone will have a view about whether we've made good, poor, indifferent progress. For me, it's to stay focused on actually making a difference and we'll be measured ultimately on the results. But yeah, we have a sense of determination to do something. Not just about this. The important thing for me is it is part of something much bigger.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, so by the time people listen to this, the progress update will be published and, as you say, I guess people will be making their own judgments about whether they feel enough progress has been made since recommendations were published back in January. First of all, though, I mean it's important, isn't it? You talked a lot about transparency, I think, the last time we spoke, and it's important that there is a progress update. It's important that people are able to interrogate where British Cycling has got to Beyond this progress update. I mean, how often? I mean, how are we going to be able to keep track of this? Will there be more progress updates? Will we have continued visibility over progress?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's something I've been talking to the team about, danny, so we haven't quite worked it out, but whether it's maybe a quarterly update. We were really clear in the report and the public recommendations that went out that some of these things will take years, not months, to deliver, fix, make better. So, yeah, I think we can get into a better cycle in terms of maybe something on a more regular basis. But fundamentally, I just want to reinforce the point. We've done this by choice. No one has asked us to do this. No one has enforced it on us. It's something we believe in, we want to do, um, and we want to be good communicators. So, uh, it is important that we receive feedback. Um, we I'm sure, uh, we'll have lots of feedback which we don't agree with, uh, lots of people who maybe, you know, have a view on our, uh, management of this. But we, we've set something out, um, and we're going to carry on, deliver against it and communicate more broadly and I mean talking about transparency.
Speaker 1:I mean, I've been lucky enough to to have seen the the full 40 recommendations. What's stopping british cycling publishing those? Because there are some recommendations in there. There is some useful things in the in the task force report that haven't seen the light of day, and in order for people to understand whether british cycling are actually delivering against the full 40 you said earlier that you know that list is is what you're trying to deliver against and you're kind of monitoring why not publish the full report?
Speaker 2:I don't think there's a specific reason. I mean, if there is a a demand for that, I'm sure we can do a more detailed, maybe an annual report, and show the force of recommendation. So, yeah, there's a great sense of authenticity, a great sense of transparency. We just wanted to publish something, in the first instance, that was consumable publicly. We've done that and the Royal Task Force accepted that it was representative of the longer recommendations. But yeah, if there's a desire to see the longer list and the progress against it, then yeah, I'm sure it'll make for a longer piece of reading. But maybe that's something we can review, do a sort of annual 12 months in review, give the rag rating, the traffic light system, measure ourselves. Again to the long list.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I'm not suggesting that I don't want to create more work for yourself, john, because actually getting on with material change is probably the most important thing, but on the other hand, just putting what the task for the full report out in the public domain I imagine it's not going to be a clamour for it, but there are some people that would be really interested to see that. I just feel like it's a useful tool in terms of just being completely open and transparent. I guess the danger is, if you don't publish them, all people will think are you trying to hide?
Speaker 2:something. Yeah, yeah, good piece of feedback. Happy to take that back and again reinforce the point that this is part of something much bigger. So we are going through a very significant modernization program. A really key part of that is our digital systems. I speak to someone almost every day about frustrations over website et cetera and that's something we're fixing. That's part of this.
Speaker 2:So that's not being done in isolation. The road task force isn't being done in isolation. So just important to get across the point that across British Cycling of the last 18 months since I've joined the organisation as a team, we are on with modernising the organisation and our value proposition and it's really, really important that we listen to the market in terms of what the market wants. We've seen an exponential growth in off-road. We have seen a really significant growth in BMX freestyle Really interested in the story that came out during the games about Halford saying they saw 12% more BMXs at the time of Kieran Riley, bess Schriever doing their thing in Paris. So it's just. Everything is part of the bigger picture, but if there's a desire for greater information, we will, I'm sure, happily do that.
Speaker 1:Okay, great, right, yes, I mean I take your point as well. There are many baubles on this Christmas tree we've constructed. But I mean, let's get on to the progress report, because I think it's important to talk about where British Cycling have got to now. Obviously, part of what you've said or saying in the progress report is the fact that you've got, I guess, a governance process now, a team charged with overseeing the delivery of the recommendations. I mean, is there any kind of dedicated resource within British Cycling that's kind of driving this? Because I think the people listed Mark Ketches from the Road Commission, scott Taylor from the board you know these are people that are kind of not paid-up employees of British Cycling. You know, I'm just wondering what resource is going into actually driving delivery of these recommendations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and first of all, we're very grateful to all those people on the Road Task Force that gave up an momentum at the time to pull the recommendations together, but also to Mark, to Scott, to Heather Bamford, who chose the Royal Commission, who's been heavily involved, and you're absolutely right that they are volunteers and we are very respectful of that. So we have a sport team led by Anthony Gill, who are tasked with the moving forward recommendations. So it's not dedicated. We haven't got 100% resource, one whole person. They wake up every morning and think about this, but it is a key part of their work and the great thing about that, denny, is that then means we've got multiple pieces of resource across the organisation. So, whether it is in marketing and comms, whether it is in brand, whether it is the people that are working already with the national event organisers but, yeah, we've got the dedicated sports team, who this sits under full-time employees and it's part of the many duties across the organisation.
Speaker 1:Is that also a challenge? I mean, you talked about the fact that you know resources aren't endless at British Cycling, of course, but you know, essentially it's left to people who already have full briefs of jobs and they're then being asked to kind of add the kind of implementation, these recommendations, on top of their jobs. I mean, is that, is that going to kind of mean or be a factor in the speed of progress here?
Speaker 2:yeah, partially, and that's just the reality of the environments in which we operate in. It was well documented in the early days of when I joined British Cycling we restructured, we reduced the headcounts and recent news about Rydale and so on that's the environment in which we operate in, so resources are tight. It's just really important that we support each other and at least we have dedicated people in full-time positions, that this has now woven into the job that they do.
Speaker 1:In terms of the progress update, then I think there are, or at least the version I've seen. I don't know if it's going to change before it's published, uh, in a few minutes, but um, there were essentially eight bullets which describe progress to date. At the top, very top, is the Lloyds Bank sponsorship, and, and there are others as well. Let's, let's maybe, if it's okay with you, john, pick a couple of key ones there. Um, I mean, the lloyds bank sponsorship itself is interesting, it's. It's kind of, uh, the the progress update says it's supporting a couple of the recommendations in the published list. I mean, and you talked about the fact that the sponsorship itself for the organization as a whole is a game changer, uh, when we spoke last time. But what material difference will that Lloyd sponsorship make to the National Road Series and the National Circuit Series?
Speaker 2:It is a game changer and we are in the very early days of the partnership. So we only onboarded Lloyds just in the couple of weeks before we delivered Tour of Britain women. They were with us at a very senior level last week on Tour of Britain men. They're really pleased about the start that we've made. We're absolutely delighted. What difference is it going to make? It's multifaceted.
Speaker 2:So, first of all, brand we think the brand looks fantastic and that has been rolled out across both Tour of Britain men women and national series and visibility.
Speaker 2:We shouldn't underestimate the size of the organisation. So our lodge bank have about 26 million customers and it's very early days about how we work together to talk more about cycling as a whole and then, more specifically, when we arrive in Sheffield, you know that's an opportunity then to connect with the branch, with people et cetera. So it's still early days, denny, I think having an iconic British brand that has 26 million customers, that is proactive about engagement and activation, that really believes in cycling as a way forward. I think we're still in the still in the sort of embryonic part of what is the art of the possible. So is there something specific that I can say today? It's going to bring this exact benefit at this particular time to a circuit or road series race. Perhaps not, but you know we've got multiple years to work that out and work together and I'm really excited by it and it gives credibility. It gives enormous credibility to the organisation, the national series as a whole and all of the different events that we will roll out.
Speaker 1:Okay, so change in branding kind of potential for engagement with customers, credibility. What about finance? I mean, does Deloitte sponsorship mean any additional funding, finance income for the race organisers, people involved in delivering the National Circuit Series or National Road Series?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's still to be worked through. I mean, it's quite simple in terms of how the deal works. They have paid a sum of money.
Speaker 2:We have some obligations to deliver against that which will be cost of sale. Then the organisation benefits from the rest of the money to reinvest back into what it believes in. And that's part of the discussion as we set our budget, particularly for NetShare, obviously halfway through the year when we onboarded Lloyds and yeah, there's lots of hungry mouths to feed and lots of people who are banging on the door and saying, you know, we would like more money for this particular thing. So National Road Series, national Circuit Series, the National Series as a whole, we've got people in the mountain bike community, bmx community, etc. You know everyone will want to see an uplift and that's really for the executive and the board to work through. So I think moments I go back to Sheffield. I think Sheffield is an exemplar. Mark Etches did a brilliant, brilliant job with the Sheffield Grand Prix. It's just an exemplar of where you can get so much more than just the investment into a bike race. And they're the things I think will really add to the conversation going forward. We know a circuit series is more economically affordable and slightly easier to deliver than a point-to-point road race. But again, you've just got to accept it and it's about what we do, going forward to add value.
Speaker 2:The thing that Lloyd's will be interested in, the thing that we're really interested in, is engaging more people. That's super, super important. The fan engagement piece, reaching more people. So if we go back to the numbers, 27 million people have ridden a bike in the last 12 months. Within the British cycling sphere, we have about a million people who we have access to their data. So a million to 27 million, that's a huge market opportunity and if we connect with more people, then we can understand them. We can give them a better value proposition. Some might be interested in putting a number on and rating, others might be interested in participation, et cetera. So having a footprint, having events that create visibility and allow a connection, is definitely part of the way forward.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, now understood. So obviously you're not committing to saying that there'll be X amount of money extra for National Road Series or National Circuit Series at this stage, but that's maybe something that materialises when you look at budgets for next year.
Speaker 2:Part of the budget process going forward and about the, as you say, use the word priority at the start. So what are the priorities of British Cycling and how can we make any investment, and what I would say about Lloyds as a brilliant, brilliant lead partner. It's only the start and people may have seen Gocho Lucky Saint Kettle Chips recently onboarded, having great experiences. It's really, really important that we drive more revenue through commercial partnerships. The more revenue we generate as a not-for-profit organisation, the more then that can be delivered in the sport. How we choose to spend that, obviously, that's the detail that we will need to work out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, one of the recommendations in the published recommendations was consideration of a targeted sponsorship agreement for the National Road Series and National Circuit Series. In other words, I guess the thinking behind that was to actually generate some value that could be from the National Road Series and National Circuit Series that could be directly put back in to supporting those two series. Is that something that British Cycling would still like to explore? Is that even possible under the Lloyds Bank deal, now that, as you say, lloyds Bank branding is going to be all over those two series?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the way it works roughly is that the title of the national series is 50% and the event organiser has the remaining 50%. Clearly there are some red lines in terms of the 50% that event organisers might be able to attract in terms of any conflict. But yeah, absolutely, we are happy to work with people to explore that. I mean, some of the event organisers have done a great job and already have some fantastic partners. If we look to Lincoln and the RAFA Grand Prix, so if nothing else changes when we get to the start line of the RAFA Grand Prix, lincoln, it will still have the same brand and will be part of the Lloyds Bank National Series. So we will look to support.
Speaker 2:We have had some conversations directly individually with some of the event organisers and that goes back probably to my previous point. The more partners we can onboard through British Cycling, the more thinking through what the brands want. They may well want a regional activation in a more rural community which may well suit one of the properties on that. So all work in progress. Does Lloyds Bank change anything? No, not at all.
Speaker 1:But what it does prevent from what you're saying is or maybe I'm reading too much into this, john your British Cycling aren't going after a National Road Series or National Circuit Series-wide sponsor. So whilst individual races can still get their own individual sponsors sharing that 50% lloyds, you know you're not going out there and thinking we want a series specific sponsor which can bring income for that series as a whole.
Speaker 2:That's not going to be possible under this new lloyds agreement not at the moment, that's not part of our plan, but it is part of our thinking because it then feeds into visibility, den, denny. So if we think about the media rights I mean Monument did a great job, a really great job this year but, thinking through, maybe on the National Circuit Series, how can we elevate that? Is there a media partnership that we could have that gives greater visibility, that then uh gives more eyeballs, that then creates more interest, that then allows the sponsorship conversation? So it's definitely part of our thinking and it is across the piece. So you know we are talking about this very specifically.
Speaker 2:But as a reminder, on our event strategy, we've got an off-road um proposition, we have an urban proposition and we have a track proposition and we just need to work out how we create more visibility. Um, we would love to see more things broadcast uh, but appreciating they are. You know, just having signed off the bill for uh tour britain men, tour britain women, you know these are expensive events on the road, but if we can get more visibility uh, then we can look at driving more revenue into uh the events, whether we deliver them centrally or whether they're delivered by our partners, our event organizers okay, so that's understood.
Speaker 1:So I mean there are opportunities there, as you say. But the actual recommendation to have a targeted sponsorship agreement just for the National Road Series and National Circuit Series isn't something you're pursuing at the moment and isn't something I guess you'd be able to pursue with the Lloyds deal. That said, you know individual races can still look for sponsors. I guess is there an exclusivity clause in the Lloyd's agreement which would prevent individual races I don't know getting another finance sponsor. I mean this was an issue previously with the Beaumont Trophy and Curly Cup where they had a deal with Virgin. Hsbc came on board. You know there was the clause there didn't allow for two finance sponsors to sit side by side. So is that something that will kind of limit to some extent one of your red lines that you've just mentioned?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you won't be surprised to hear that there are some restrictions in the agreement we've signed and you know we're very cognizant of that and you know it just goes back to what I said before. Such early days, uh, in the agreement, uh, we need to take stock at the end of the year, do a proper review and look how we can support people going forward. But, um, we're delighted, absolutely delighted, that we've got a big brand who are interested, deeply interested, in not just cycling but british cycling, and I think that use another analogy we've gone through the christmas tree.
Speaker 1:Um, let's talk about if the tide rises, all boats rise, and that's very much what we're focused on at the moment so I mean we've only talked about one of one of those bullet points and I don't think we've got time to go through each one individually. But I did a bit of uh back of the envelope stuff before we spoke. John, looking at the progress update, I think in total the the eight bullets cover just seven of the published 16 recommendations. Obviously there's a full of 40, as we've discussed and arguably not all of the bullet points actually directly relate to some of the recommendations. They're things which I guess British Site can consider as relevant to them, but they're not directly addressing the implementation of those recommendations. So, seven and a half months, or nearly eight months from the publication of the recommendations, are you satisfied with where you've got to with progress? Given the fact that it's patchy, based on new progress update, very little has actually been delivered beyond the admittedly very big item of delivering the Tours of Britain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's a key point, isn't it, denny? The recommendations not everyone of the recommendations is equal in terms of the amount of support that it needs. Delivering the Tours of Britain has been a phenomenal effort, given some of the legacy issues that we inherited, so that has taken up a lot of our time. Now that is a more significant just in terms of resource recommendation than many of the others. Am I satisfied? Overall, I'm really proud of what we've done on Souls of Britain, but I recognise there's a lot more to do across the National Series and other things, and that's now, having come through the Olympics and Paralympics, which shouldn't be underestimated, the impact on the organisation in a hugely positive way. That's where we need to use the rest of the year to really springboard into Nectar's National Series and the many other things that the organisation needs to deliver. So we've provided an update, we will provide another one around about 12 months, which will be about the end of the year, and we just want to continue to work with event organisers, with volunteers, with commissars, with accredited marshals, with everyone, because without all of those people, none of this would be possible. The Tours of Britain would not be possible. We're very, very conscious of that.
Speaker 2:I am due to meet with the National Road and Circuit Series event organisers in the coming weeks, so looking forward to what I'm sure will be a full and frank discussion about various things. And I also go back to the environment. You know the environment is not something we can control. So if we look at cost cost are the cost of anything hiring, portals, fencing, staging, pa systems, etc. All of that has increased. And then, on the other side, revenue has become more difficult. The commercial environment is challenging, so we just need to focus on the things we can control but acknowledge this is really tough. It's really tough and potentially we'll get even tougher. Yeah, I mean, obviously, as you say, delivering the Tours of.
Speaker 1:Britain were big, big ticket items and I think you said earlier that they were in a sense a distraction for the organisation. A welcome distraction, a positive one, yeah, a distraction nonetheless. They were also a sense a distraction for the organisation. A welcome distraction, a distraction nonetheless. They were also a bit of an anomaly in the. I'm not saying British Cycling shouldn't have delivered those, but they were an anomaly in the recommendations in that the recommendations were really about the elite level, the National Road Series and National Circuit Series. They were kind of put in there because they felt they were important but, let's face it, they tore Britain several tiers above the National, a road racing level.
Speaker 1:Of the recommendations that were given to you, they were kind of split up into general recommendations, circuit series of recommendations, road series of recommendations. Apart from the Tour of Britain, which, as I say, is kind of a bit of an anomaly recommendation, there's been no progress on any of the road series. Specific recommendations according to your own progress update Is that, given the fact that you said earlier that the road is kind of a circuit, it's kind of slightly easier from a commercial perspective and from a sustainability perspective, road feels like it's the area that needs most attention. It's the kind of I guess, if any area of racing was on life support, then road potentially is it? Yeah, is that good enough for British Cycling the fact that there's no mention of any of those road series recommendations in the progress update?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, first of all, it demonstrates how challenging this is. Danny, we set out at the start of the year an aspiration as an organisation, working with event organisers that will be one or more stage races as part of the National Road Series and we've ended the year with no stage races and there are multiple reasons for that. We heard the news this week about the Rydale Grand Prix and I was with Bob Howden last week, had a good conversation with Bob. You know, fantastic event and that's a facilities-related issue. It's not a funding-related issue and it just, once again, it shows the complexity. So absolutely no excuses for us.
Speaker 2:This is hard. We rely on event organisers, we rely on the public sector in terms of local authorities and other people coming forward, and we know that the costs to deliver, particularly where policing becomes part of the cocktail, is only going one way. So there are some things that we are thinking about. We have a new, obviously changing government and administration. I think we have some really interesting positive noises coming from government about transport and travel in particular. So there's no magic wand of how we change all of this, but we would love to make representation about how we can have more sustainable opportunities for races on the public highway. You know, perhaps some of what is perceived as lack of progress is or british cycling haven't done what they set out to do. Um, perhaps some of it is.
Speaker 1:This is just really hard, it's just really hard yeah, I mean I think I think everyone well, any, any reasoned person would accept there are many factors which are completely beyond your control or need government support and change to address, like the 20 mile per hour speed limit, for example. That's kind of challenged the Junior Tour of Wales, among other races. But I guess my question is more about the fact that, in terms of the recommendations which were about the road series, there's been no progress. That is within your grasp, isn't it? That is within British Cycling's wheelhouse to actually make a start in actually trying to implement them and, at the moment at least, the progress update suggests that that hasn't been something that's had any attention so far.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it has had attention because it's across the piece. Does there need to be more focus in particular areas? Is it something to take back and work on for the next quarter? Yeah, I'm sure, but we go all the way back to the start of the conversation. We chose to do this because we recognised that there's an issue. I think the issue has got worse and that means we need to continue to have a concerted focus on particular things. There will be some things that we can add value to and can fix. There will be some things that we don't have any control over and cannot fix and that unfortunately, danny, is the reality of the world. I do think you know a lot of this.
Speaker 2:The conversation has been about some of the doom and gloom and some of the challenges you know. Let's just reflect on the Tour of Britain and the British talent, stevie Williams, first British winner since 2016. If you look at the top five populated by British riders, look at the story of Joe Blackmore winning the Tour de L'Avenie just incredible. On the women's side, look at Kat Ferguson. Look at the proliferation of British riders riding on the continent, fulfilling the dreams.
Speaker 2:So there's some good stuff happening out there, and last week I was with, in northampton, the national school of racing, you know the next uh breed of talent coming through. They came to the tour of britain, they were part of it, they rode. You know some brilliant content that we just pushed out, uh, this week. So you, good things are happening, despite some of the challenges, the specific challenges of having road series races. And that's not to say that we're just going to focus on celebrating the good stuff. We're going to roll our sleeves up and also try and make sure that the opportunities to ride, whether it be in junior or elite, remain and thrive.
Speaker 1:No, I mean, you're right to celebrate the good stuff and I'm very good at pointing out the things I'm worried about rather than celebrating the good stuff.
Speaker 1:But talking of the tours of Britain, and we just obviously have the Tour of Britain Men and, as you said, hugely successful tour for British riders.
Speaker 1:I think you mentioned Cycling Weekly or at least you were quoted as saying to Cycling Weekly that you've seen a displacement of talent going to the continent and many of those riders that did succeed in well, most of those riders that succeeded were riders that are based with foreign teams kind of further their careers. And it feels like there's almost a there's a cycle going on where riders see less and less opportunity within the uk for themselves because races are under threat or races have disappeared at the uci level and the national road series level and they've only got tour britain and cycle classic left now in the uk. So they head abroad to progress their careers and that means there are fewer numbers in National Road Series races, which makes it harder to sustain them because there's less income for race organisers, which increases the chances of those races closing. How do we get back to a situation where we can, you know, or is it something you even want to see? Is it okay for riders just to go head abroad? Do we even need to change that cycle?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not sure we will ever go back to what people consider the halcyon days of pre-2012, post-2012. I just think that that's gone and I don't think that's returning. Do we want to see more UCI races in the UK and more of those British talent riding? Yes. Do we want to see more of those talent racing in national series? Yes. I was speaking to my performance director, Stephen Park, earlier, and we were talking about continuing to encourage the people on the GBCT programme to ride in national series and support national championships, which I think we've done and done particularly well. And I think Matt Holmes is really interesting, isn't he Winning Lincoln Grand Prix and then being team captain for the Great Britain team in the Tour of Britain? So I think it's multifaceted.
Speaker 2:Denny, Will we go back to what many people remember fondly? No. Can we push for more talent to be seen racing in the UK? Of course, and without sounding like a broken record. That's why it was so, so important that we saved the Tour of Britain, Because let's imagine a world this year where that race didn't exist. Then we are bereft of seeing that talent on UK roads. We were speaking earlier in the week to Hubraisha the news that they put out about the Classic. Just another challenge, and again, that's not purely limited to the usual funding restrictions. It's more complicated than that. So it's really important we continue to have high-quality races with high-quality talent and that there is a pathway to come through. But also, we shouldn't stand in the way of young riders Josh Tarling being, I think, one of the very best examples that's going to go on and fulfil his dreams of riding professionally and supporting himself going forward. I think that's a positive, but it's complicated, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It is complicated, yeah, as you say I I mean, obviously the environment changes and we can't necessarily wind back the clock, but, um, nonetheless, you know there were. You know we met. Josh tarling and kat ferguson are really interesting cases, aren't they? Because they're going basically straight from juniors to well. I know josh tarling's gone to inios, which is a british registered team, but let's face it, he spends most of his time racing abroad and Cap will be similar racing with Movistar. And there was a time when you know, not that long ago, where Tom Pickock was riding for Team Wiggins and kind of ripping up the Tour Series and you'd see him regularly on the raffle at Lincoln Grand Prix, you know, going up Michael Gate, you could go to a National Road Series race and you knew you were seeing the stars of the future, whereas that seems to be changing now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's a philosophical discussion. We haven't got time for it. Maybe the next time, if you want to invite me back, we can get into the philosophical discussion. But has the market decided? Has the market decided that that is the effect of uh, whether it's a lack of uh funding, support uh professional, uh british continental uh teams etc. You know that's not for now, but a lot of people look to brief cycling. It's british cycling's uh responsibility or fault, etc. Um, and we will always say we want to do more but also the market will decide and and that's definitely been a trend, there are more British riders, men and women, riding on the World Tour than ever before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, as you say, it's a whole podcast in itself isn't talking about that, probably. But the couple of things I want to finish on. John, I know we should probably look to wrap up, but you mentioned BC Events. It's now got two full-time people, uh, responsible for organizing the tours of britain and I think last time we spoke it's obviously you've got this ambition to grow that arm and it's going to not just be delivering road racing. Of course it'd be other events too. But what role do you see for that, if any, for supporting the elite scene in future years? Yeah, I.
Speaker 2:I think it's important well early days, important that there is a conversation that's hopefully formed part of when I meet National Series event organisers on road and circuit in the next few weeks. But we can't you know, whatever that becomes, we can't do it on our own. It was great to have the support of Gary Coltman as one example on Tour of Britain Men. Gary does such an amazing job with Lincoln Grand Prix came, got stuck in, helped us, added huge value and huge experience and that's a sort of symbiotic relationship of working together. And I think, as the organisation hopefully grows and it will need to grow in terms of resource to meet our aspirations of delivering multiple events. That you know, it's just. We are all part of the same team. We all, at the end of the day, we all, I think, have the same objective in terms of growing and developing the sport and providing fantastic experiences. So hopefully, a closer working together with event organisers.
Speaker 1:And then I guess you talked about the ecosystem and we can't really look at the elite level in isolation, as you said earlier.
Speaker 1:I guess below that, a lot of races now and I think you mentioned it earlier too but a lot of races are suffering from, I guess, a lack of volunteers.
Speaker 1:We've got the accredited martial system but there are, I guess, limited numbers of people willing to come forward and do that job. Um, many of them kind of acute. Well, the argument goes that, you know, some of those are kind of facing burnout and and so on. And there was also the issue at the tour of britain actually, where, you know, because accredited marshals were being used for stage six of the tour of britain, there weren't enough accredited marshals to to allow the eastern road racing championships to go ahead, which was going to take place near to where stage six took place. So there's obviously a kind of a dearth of volunteers to make and keep road racing happening sometimes and that is a reason some race organizers give for races being cancelled. What can be done to kind of encourage and reward and, uh, make that system better so that that isn't so much of a barrier to holding races in the future?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, I wasn't aware of that, um, that issue that you just flagged up, um, denny, uh, but yeah, it just. It once again shines a spotlight on the need to have more people coming through at all levels, so volunteers, creative marshals, commissars, et cetera. It is multifaceted and we cannot just rely on the people that are giving up an extraordinary amount of their time at the moment and the dedicated volunteers we have. We must recruit new people. So pre-Olympics, paralympics, pre-summer we have a new volunteer manager, phil Ball, who's doing a great job. Phil organised a series of workshops and that will continue in terms of recruiting new talent, and it's across the piece, it's on regional boards, it's part of the sporting system, and that's something we'll continue to work at, and the value proposition probably just needs to be a bit different, particularly if we want to attract younger people. So it's essential. That is definitely on the essential list, because if we don't have those people and those positions, nothing can happen. So, yeah, it's critical.
Speaker 1:Great. Well, let's wrap up there, john, because that is a positive note to finish on the fact that you're recognising that's an essential area for action and hopefully we will see some change there. And, as you say, there's lots to celebrate and I'm sorry I've kind of basically used 53 minutes of our time to try and give you a hard time, but I appreciate you taking the actually, you know, coming on and be willing to answer my questions, because not everybody would and, as you said last time, it's important for transparency purposes and just to hear what the chief executive of British Cycling has to say. So I really appreciate you taking time to talk.
Speaker 2:No, look, my pleasure, happy to come back on again and happy to give this as a live conversation and just want to say, denny, a huge thank you to you and everything that you do for the sport and everyone else that covers the sport. I think we're all passionate. We might have some different views every now and again, but we are, I think, all in pursuit of the same thing we want the sport to grow, flourish and become what it's more than capable of being.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Well, thank you so much, john. Um, hopefully we'll catch you again in a few months time to find out more. Thank you for listening to the british continental podcast brought to you by and supported by pro noctis. Do check out our website, wwwthebritishcontinentalcouk for all the latest on the domestic road scene.
